Methuen Handbook Of Colors Buy. Roads Were Not Built For Cars. END- NOTESThese are the notes and references to accompany the print, i.

Pantone books have color chip pages that cover similar-hue colors: Graphics (Another common Pantone visual matching system looks like a pocket knife with many equally-sized blades. Each 'blade' contains color chips in a similar-hue range.

Graphics - GoeGuide™ uncoated (So far as gamut goes, Pantone far exceeds Methuen in any given hue. True, Pantone libraries are designed for specifying inks for print runs. But they're also a pretty useful way to describe a color since they're widely supported with printed media and software.

Anyone with a copy of Photoshop and a calibrated monitor can call them up instantly. Certainly using them would be a big improvement over Methuen, which is totally unavailable (other than the odd eBay auction) and will never see print again. Matching and diplaying colors is deep problem. First at all- many old researchers are used two system, Methuen and Munsell. Munsell is stated as the best one but it is very 'heavy priced'. Other problem is that many of data is still in Methuen but the fact is that every edition look different.

Solution could be find in the modern books and Pantone is find best at all. But- how to translate all data given by Ian Huntley into Pantone? Modern way is to go to digital- every Photoshop user have in its color palette many of the industrial color systems and there are also Pantone. But then we have other problem- every monitor is different quality and calibration.

I have allready here some 'cross swords' about why some colors look like that [my question how many members use Apple proof monitor as I have]. So we are in field of problems. Only solution is that researchers have to make replica of colors and in cooperation with modelers and model paint company make acurate color mix or color product. In any way final destination is the model painting.

Sreiko: Modern way is to go to digital- every Photoshop user have in its color palette many of the industrial color systems and there are also Pantone. But then we have other problem- every monitor is different quality and calibration. I have allready here some 'cross swords' about why some colors look like that [my question how many members use Apple proof monitor as I have]. Sreiko, if someone is trying to match a color using a computer monitor and does not understand the concept of monitor calibration, that's pretty much the end of the discussion. No matter what kind of data you give them, they'll get a bad result. I think using Pantone, at least everyone would have access to printed chips that are consistent and we can keep computers out of the discussion.

I was trying to say is you have a color report from and time long gone and nothing survived but the report and it gives a color in Methuen you have to use it to cross match it to pantone?? Wouldn't you so far no one has steped up to help with the color we need.

Doug Well, you don't need to translate the entire Methuen system, just the references that you need. If you have some, post the Methuen codes and I'll translate them to the closest Pantone match.

And then we'll argue about them endlessly since no two Methuen handbooks show the exact same colors.:lol: Honestly, I think every Methuen reference ever given is pretty worthless for the very reason that it's impossible to know with any precision what the plates in the handbook used looked like. Not to mention the lighting conditions used to make the comparison. Not to mention that Methuen uses halftone screens and pretends they're solid colors. I think you're ascribing far more accuracy to Methuen color codes in old reports than they merit. Even if they're translated to Pantone, they're still only going to be an approximation of the color and probably a rough one at that. Best source is the scans of original colors and reproduction based on factory mixes. RGB is used as exchange data between illustrators and other source used is Pantone.

But again many people erfer it look as they seen on screen People who exchange RGB coordinates for color data don't know anything about color management on a computer. I've given up trying to explain how digital color works -- if people want to believe that some magic numbers will show them the precise color of weathered lozenge fabric just by plugging them into a shareware paint program, more power to 'em:witchdr. One other minor thing; Absolutely everyone sees color differently. As much as 10% of males are to some degree 'color blind.' The British Railway world has a most apt description of colour as applied to the steam locomotive; 'It is 'Fugitive'.' No Harrison Ford or David Jansen, just simply impossible to pin down with any repeatable accuracy when changing sources or formats, film (which film exposure, care in storage) to paint, overcast to direct bright sun.

There are so many variables to contend with. So what is good enough? I have personally taken Autochromes off this site (ie: Nie 940) and most often reduced the image's overall green component to balance out the total image color with remarkable results (as stated by those who watched me doing it.) We need to define an acceptable tolerance range of accurate color reproduction for hobby purposes. Has anyone done this? In publishing there are standards (ie: the previously mentioned 'Pantone inks' process) that when (and I witnessed this first hand) 'absolutely accurate standardized white level computer colors' were computer matched to a given image (a 70+ year old Kodachrome) an individual (woman) with above average color sensing clearly and easily corrected that image by eye to a greater level of accuracy than that afforded by the professional level computer equipment, system etc. So lets leave a little wiggle room please and try to get reasonably close. Has anyone commented on the 90 or so years affects of simple oxidation (huge tolerance for variation needed there!) to the surviving pigment on fabrics that the collective 'we' still have on hand?

Try 'polishing' ('abrade' sounds so destructive!) through the top layers of cellulose nitrate dope, and then the pigments and entirely different hues will appear from beneath! Or is this too a bone of contention? I have in my possession a Pantone 'Solid to Process' book of 1089 total colors.

Were there genuinely less colors than this in the Methuen system books? Would someone kindly be able to provide color numbers in this format to match Nieuport 3 and 4 color camouflage (Nie 11/16) as well as 'Horizon Blue' for Interplane 'V' strut tapes as well as cabane and landing gear struts? It might be very useful to a great many people building Special Hobby 1/32 kits --like me. Raoul, I used the Methuen codes found on page 46 of the Windsock DF Special Nieuport Fighters, Volume 1, by J.M.

Here are my results, presented with no comment regarding their accuracy -- a simple translation from the Methuen code to the closest Pantone color from their Solid to Process library. Patric- I respect you and your work but about this. People who exchange RGB coordinates for color data don't know anything about color management on a computer.

I have publish enogh that I can stand behind my statemnt. What I see on monitor I see printed in publications.

Yesterday I get book from Finland with some of my works- identical to what I have on screen. Also my RGB data was privately exchanged and other illustrator used them with success.

More about my works is here: Srecko Bradic Art Portfolio Blog Archive Best month (And here: Srecko Bradic Art Portfolio Blog Archive 2008 (And this is just my last months of work. Driverpack Solution 16 Iso Free Download Utorrent For Windows. As you know I have Methuen and still use it. But I am sick at all of people who claim that their Methuen is better then other Methuen. Anyway this subject is go on good and provide much of valuable info to people. My name is Srecko but it is hardly to say or write to many abroad. Most frequently ommision on my name writting on mails is Sreiko so that's why I use it.

Hi Srecko, and I really admire the work you do -- Udet's Bf-110 profile that you showed here recently was a beautiful job and I can see from your blog that you keep busy at artwork. I guess if both person's equipment is high-quality to start with, properly calibrated and using the same color space model, using RGB coordinates can be reliable enough for color matching even for a print run (I wouldn't do it, but it sure seems to work for you and your print shops). The problems start with exchanging RGB values between uncalibrated systems and expecting consistency.

If you put two uncalibrated monitors side-by-side, I guarentee that a given RGB color from one will look different on the other although they will 'approximate' each other. I don't think that there's a lot of value in publishing the RGB numbers of colors as a reference because ten different computers will produce ten different variations of the target color.

If everyone can be satisfied with this level of accuracy, fine, but it's incorrect to believe that a set of RGB coordinates represents a single color -- it just doesn't. For that, you'd need to state the color as CIE Lab coordinates. Very good to state LAB colors- many profesionals do use only this LAB colors. I use just sometimes when I work on image enhancement. Fact is- RGB mode for wide use are not safe but for well maintaned and proof monitor it can be used. Patrick- I can not find that you have web site? You have that much of color data that site with that content would be very valuable reference for everybody!

Hope that you have time for this:) Or even to make own corner here at Aerodrome [with support of owner and admins]. It look like that situation with monitors are the same as with clocks- two clock does not show the same time, two monitors does not show the same color. Thank you for compliments:). Hi Doug, I didn't follow the lozenge test for all thread so you may have already covered this. Print out color chips (or display them on your monitor, or mix paint -- whatever) for the 5-color top lozenge pattern.

Normally you do this with the chips on a 50% gray background. Use any Methuen numbers you believe to be accurate. When you think you've got everything perfect, combine the five colors into the actual pattern. No matter how perfectly you think you've matched the color as a chip, at least one or two of these colors placed in the pattern will look wrong, noticeably so.

Now add in the scaling problem -- the colors need to be adjusted again depending on whether your target is a 1/72 scale or a 1/32 scale model. The point I'm trying to make (and maybe you came to this conclusion in the lozenge test for all) is that the Holy Grail of a single set of numbers defining a historic color for all time under all circumstances is just that -- a mythical Holy Grail. The approach is wrong because any single set of color coordinates can be correct only under a rigidly specified set of conditions.

I think it would be a lot more useful to agree on 'base colors' using something commonly available like Pantone to provide a starting point. And, yeah, if the only thing you have to go on is some Methuen codes, use those and convert them to Pantone (or whatever) so that they're accessable to all. Then have a library of digital photos of the actual fabric or paint, preferably under different lighting conditions.

There's a lot of this material around, it just needs a designated place online so it's easy to look up. Here's a recent example of some great lozenge shots by Maxim08 on this forum: Using the baseline color as your starting point, the digital photos would give a much better idea of the total effect you're trying to achieve in your project.

And we can finally get over the pointless debate about this or that Methuen code:lol. Hello Patrick, Thank you for your conversion from one of the two books on early Nieuports it appears I am (temporarily!) without.

I am quite surprised at both the 'Yellow' and the CDL matches, as all of these samples appear far more 'pink' than I'd have expected. I haven't any period sample Autochromes of any Nieuports to have an opinion on these particular colors. BUT the two camouflage colors of brown and green are so close to what I have from the color corrected Nie 940 Autochrome (my screen-saver incidentally) that it is truly an excellent match! I'd say that these two colors are within 5% or so of what they appear on my monitor to the Pantone book swatches. Based on these two colors, absolutely YES!!! In my view this conversion works quite well, more than acceptably well!

I have a bit of professional color matching experience for Athearn Trains. I set up their initial foray into Chinese production of injection molded models along with actual tooling and related issues there.

This required several trips over a period of years. I also simultaneously had to do color matching of the Chinese supplied paints to samples of EMD (Electro Motive Division of GM) original paint chips from the 1940's. We had an artificial light box set-up, supposedly a 'True White Light' rated at some thing like 5900 Kelvin or whatever it was ('skylight' is a very cool and bluish 6400 degrees Kelvin, Incandescent lamps are a very warm red-orange at 2900 degrees K with Halogens at a little cooler 3200 degrees K.) I ended up using indirect, direct and reflected sun light (talk about air pollution over there) which worked better, as it was more easy on my eyes. Nothing but 'Okays' from the modeling public here in the U.S. So I suppose the final colors were within a few percent of dead on --whatever that is!

But if I may persist, a resounding yes to the rear fuselage brown and adjacent green on Nie 940's Autochrome, but what of the forward 'russet' brown, the lighter (I presume) green of the four color Nieuport 16's and that ever evasive 'Horizon Blue?' Were there TWO distinctly differing 'Horizon Blues?' I've found a contemporary image on line of an 'Adrain Helmet' that though quite worn had an overall light pale gray embodying a visible tinge of purple to my eyes. This again matches the Nie 940 Autochrome 'Ripolin' painted cabane struts and landing gear as well as flying surface perimeter tapes. Yet underneath this helmet's top color is I presume an earlier, darker and significantly bluer gray. Could this be possibly be the earlier and apparently darker color used on ecru Nie 10's and 11's Ripolin surfaces and perimeter tapes, not brown?

Period Orthochromatic B&W images of side by side ecru and camouflaged early Nieuports seem to indicate this to be so. I could attach this helmet image if there is anyone interested and providing that I re-read the steps on just how to do that.

As i said, what color is goose turd??? I need some thing to point me to the right way. I need help from some were or some thing or some one:D Doug Hi Doug, catch a flight to Chicago, leave the airport and look for a subdivision with a large retention pond.

Park next to the pond, get out and walk to the edge of the water. Look at the bottom of your shoe -- that's goose turd.:lol::lol::D:):p I amuse easily. According to the Methuen Handbook: Goose Turd The colour of the excrement of a goose or duck. Corresponds to the French colour name (couleun de) mende d’oie; should not be confused with the French fashion name (bleu) canard which refers to a duck’s plumage. Here's the conversion -- Methuen 3F3 Pantone Solid to Process: Pantone Black PC CIE Lab: L = 10 a = 3 b = 12.

I have a bit of professional color matching experience for Athearn Trains. I set up their initial foray into Chinese production of injection molded models along with actual tooling and related issues there. This required several trips over a period of years.

I also simultaneously had to do color matching of the Chinese supplied paints to samples of EMD (Electro Motive Division of GM) original paint chips from the 1940's. We had an artificial light box set-up, supposedly a 'True White Light' rated at some thing like 5900 Kelvin or whatever it was ('skylight' is a very cool and bluish 6400 degrees Kelvin, Incandescent lamps are a very warm red-orange at 2900 degrees K with Halogens at a little cooler 3200 degrees K.) I ended up using indirect, direct and reflected sun light (talk about air pollution over there) which worked better, as it was more easy on my eyes. Nothing but 'Okays' from the modeling public here in the U.S.

So I suppose the final colors were within a few percent of dead on --whatever that is! But if I may persist, a resounding yes to the rear fuselage brown and adjacent green on Nie 940's Autochrome, but what of the forward 'russet' brown, the lighter (I presume) green of the four color Nieuport 16's and that ever evasive 'Horizon Blue?' Were there TWO distinctly differing 'Horizon Blues?' Hi Raoul, my Dad was an engineer in Experimental Test at EMD in LaGrange for 44 years, until his retirement. I worked there for two summers in the late 70's; I recall walking through the paint shop and looking at their current jobs. By that time, the E- and F- series from the late 40's and 50's were long gone, replaced by the boxy GP- and SD- series with the Common Cab nose. We used to build stuff in this country...:( Here's Horizon Blue as defined by the Methuen Handbook: Horizon Blue Same as pale turquoise.

The colour of the sky viewed at an angle of about 5 degrees to the horizon. See sky blue. Methuen 24A3 Pantone Solid to Process: Pantone 5585 PC CIE Lab: L = 86 a = -6 b = 1 I don't have time to look up the other Nieuport colors tonight, I'll try to get them posted for you tomorrow. Hey Patrick, Interesting about your Dad and EMD. I personally did all of the concept, design and tooling for the Highliners/ATHEARN Genesis F Series in H.O.

My name is engraved in the underside of the cab roof. All in S-7 hardened tool steel. So far 'Broadway Limited' and now Wm. K Walthers have quite literally ripped off the F Unit nose contours with laser scanning.

I spent a lot of time effort and that other green stuff to get those nose contours dead-on in CAD some 10 years ago using EMD's line drawings. Bill Wischer at Walthers has admitted as much! My Pantone book indicates your match for 'Horizon Blue' as what appears to my eye quite plainly as a Seafoam Green. There is actually a great deal more of a green cast than a blue cast. Makes me truly wonder about original source material possibly having significantly yellowed with the subsequent 9 decades since application.

I looked up the Highliners/ATHEARN Genesis F Series -- beautiful work! I've always thought that the EMD F Series is a classic of American design. A long time ago I asked my father how they got the nose shaped like that.

He told me that the framing and bumper were flame-cut steel, and the skin segments were also flame-cut, looked like flattened orange peels. Then a crew of blacksmiths welded the skin segments to the bumper, and working with hand held torches and hammers, shaped it to cover the frame, welded the seams and finished it by hand with grinders. The finished shape was strong enough to withstand an enormous collision with little damage. My Pantone book indicates your match for 'Horizon Blue' as what appears to my eye quite plainly as a Seafoam Green. There is actually a great deal more of a green cast than a blue cast. Makes me truly wonder about original source material possibly having significantly yellowed with the subsequent 9 decades since application.

I think that the colors of both the source material and the color plates in the Methuen Handbooks degrades with time. It's not for nothing that Pantone recommends their printed materials be replaced annually if color fidelity is critical.

Unfortunately, I can't find color references for the early four-color scheme. The Windsock DF Special I used earlier doesn't show a four-color pattern, and only gives the colors I posted earlier. Another WS DF Special, Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette by Jon Guttman, shows many profiles of N.11s in a four-color scheme but provides no Methuen references. Volume 2 of J.M. Bruce's Nieuport Fighters WS DF Special has Methuen references for the late four-color scheme, but I tried a few of them and they look waaaaaay off.

I can post them if you're interested.

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